• Apgrejdovali smo forum na XenForo 2.1.1, ukoliko imate predloga vezanih za izgled ili funkcionalnost foruma, ili ukoliko naletite na neki problem, javite nam OVDE

    DEFINISALI SMO PRAVILA FORUMA. Pročitajte ih, pojaviće se automatski kada krenete da čitate nešto!

Automobili

Bob Marli

PCAXE Member
Učlanjen(a)
31.10.2010.
Poruka
604
Rezultat reagovanja
2
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i5-760 4.0Ghz / Mega Shadow Deluxe
Motherboard:
Asus P7P55D-E Evo
RAM:
Kingston HyperX DDR3 2x8GB 1600MHz / OC 1800Mhz
VGA & cooler:
GeForce GTX770 MSI GAMING 2GB
Display:
Samsung SA550 / LG 55UB850V
HDD:
OCZ Vertex 2 60GB / Samsung 840 EVO 250GB / Samsung F4 2TB / WD Green WD30EZRX 3TB / WD Green WD30
Sound:
X-fi Xtreme Music / Logitech Z-5500
Case:
Corsair Graphite Series 600T Black
PSU:
Chieftec CTF750W
Optical drives:
Samsung DVD-RW
Mice & keyboard:
Logitech G500 / Logitech G110
Internet:
SBB 40/2.5 mbit
OS & Browser:
Windows 7
Other:
Sony Plastation 3 Slim 320GB , Samsung S5, Samusung S3, iPad 3, Nokia 6300
Ne sumnjam da će poskupeti za novija kola nebitno koje kubikaže. Mene interesuje jer mi je auto osma godina, 3000 kubika i ne daje mi se još jedna registracija, a opet mi ne žao da prodajem auto koji je kao nov. Plus ****nje oko nabavke drugog.
Danas je N1 okačio vest, njima čovek i da poveruje nešto.
 

MikiD

PCAXE Member
Učlanjen(a)
08.05.2009.
Poruka
411
Rezultat reagovanja
3
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
Intel celeron G1820
Motherboard:
Asus H81M-K
RAM:
Patriot 2x4GB DDR3
VGA & cooler:
intel HD
Display:
ViewSonic VA2216w
HDD:
Samsung F3 500GB
@drfedja

Sta je novo na 1.5 TSI u odnosu na 1.4? Osim kubikaze vidim sve isto...
 

drfedja

CPU Guru
Učlanjen(a)
01.04.2009.
Poruka
3.084
Rezultat reagovanja
14
Moja konfiguracija
PC / Laptop Name:
Dell n5010, Intel Core i3 370M 2.4 GHz, 4 GB DDR3 1333
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i7 4790K @ 4.5 GHz
Motherboard:
Biostar Hi-Fi Z97WE
RAM:
16GB Kingston HyperX Beast 2400
VGA & cooler:
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9-280X
Display:
Viewsonic VA2342 23" LED, LG 25"Ultrawide, Samsung VA2342 23"
HDD:
Samsung SSD850 Evo 250GB, Kingston 120GB V300 SSD, 2x1GB WD Caviar black
Sound:
Altec Lansing 5100E
Case:
Cooler Master 690-III
PSU:
Cooler Master G650M modular
Optical drives:
N/A
Mice & keyboard:
Keyboard/Mouse Cooler Master Storm
Internet:
Cable
OS & Browser:
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Other:
iPhone 6S 64GB
@drfedja

Sta je novo na 1.5 TSI u odnosu na 1.4? Osim kubikaze vidim sve isto...
Novo..to je pitanje. Navodno je odzvonilo downsizingu. Zapravo, neće više u velike automobile trpati male motore, jer zbog opterećenja dolazi do povećanja azotnih oksida, ali i smanjenja efikasnosti. E sad, valjda će 1.4TSI da bude zamenjen sa 1.5TSI u celoj gami, tako da će to biti dovoljno da taj agregat pokrene sve od Pola do A4. Drugim rečima potrošnja malog agregata u teškom vozilu je veća od većeg agregata.

Logično je da za istu snagu iz manje kubikaže imaš veću temperaturu sagorevanja u cilidnrima, što znači veću emisijo NOx, koji se stvara prilikom sagorevanja pod određenim temperaturama i pritiscima.

Koliko znam 1.4 TDI se izbacuje i zamenjuje ga 1.6TDI. Od sledeće generacije Golfa VIII nema više 2.0 TDI, možda će ostati samo 1.6 TDI, a jače 2.0 TDI će zameniti 1.5 TSI hybrid, koji bi trebalo da obezbedi manju potrošnju i emisiju izduvnih gasova uz adekvatan obrtni moment. Problem je što za potrebne eko norme dizel neće biti više isplativ. Jedino mi nije jasno kako će hibrid biti isplativ, da li će koštati isto ili manje od npr. 2.0 TDI, o resursu tih hibrida niko i ne govori, ali svakome iole potkovanom znanjem je jasno da resurs 1.5 TSI nema šanse da priđe resursu 2.0 TDI CR, a o baterijama za hibridni pogon da ne govorim.

To su verovatno pravci u kojima će se kretati cela autoindustrija.
 
Poslednja izmena:

Iv4n

Moderator
Učlanjen(a)
05.01.2010.
Poruka
1.171
Rezultat reagovanja
0
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i5-2500K @ 4.8GHz + EKWB Supreme HF Full Copper
Motherboard:
Asus P8P67
RAM:
16GB Exceleram EBW301A 1600MHz CL9 + Bitspower FullCover Water Block
VGA & cooler:
Asus GTX680 DCII + EKWB FullCover Water block
Display:
Dell U2713HM IPS
HDD:
Samsung 840Evo 250GB
Sound:
Asus Xonar DG & Samson C03U Microphone
Case:
Corsair Obsidian 700D + Swiftech MCR320-QP radijator
PSU:
Seasonic X-750
Mice & keyboard:
Logitech G710+ & Logitech G400
Internet:
SBB 70Mbit
OS & Browser:
Win 7 SP1 Ultimate - X64
Ne sumnjam da će poskupeti za novija kola nebitno koje kubikaže. Mene interesuje jer mi je auto osma godina, 3000 kubika i ne daje mi se još jedna registracija, a opet mi ne žao da prodajem auto koji je kao nov. Plus ****nje oko nabavke drugog.
Danas je N1 okačio vest, njima čovek i da poveruje nešto.
Bilo je takvih vesti vec 2 godine, jos pre nego sto sam kupio CLS-a, tada sam se jos kao nadao da ce mozda smanje. Onda se pojavila vest koja demantuje potpuno celu pricu, gde se prica da je neko pogresno razumeo izjavu ministra i da se nece drasticno menjati cene.

Cak i na N1 vest stoji, izmedju ostalog:

Inače, vrednost vozila, u slučaju da se primeni kriterijum vrednosti na tržištu prilikom oporezivanja, bila bi procenjivana ili na osnovu kataloga Auto - moto saveza Srbije (AMSS), ili tako da se umesto postojećih sedam, uvede devet ili više grupa vozila po kubikaži.
Najvise lici da ce da razvuku grupe od 3.0 do 5.0 litara, i da ce tu napraviti malo manje korake u povecanju, dok ce ostale ostaviti nepromenjene ili podici da nadoknade deficit za one kategorije koje su smanjili :)
 

voodoons

Moderator
Učlanjen(a)
06.04.2009.
Poruka
7.946
Rezultat reagovanja
142
Moja konfiguracija
PC / Laptop Name:
voodoons’s MacBook Pro
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i5
Motherboard:
MacBookPro12,1
RAM:
8 GB
VGA & cooler:
Intel Iris Graphics 6100
Display:
Retina LCD 13"
HDD:
APPLE SSD SM0128G
Sound:
Apple Inc
Mice & keyboard:
Lenovo BT Laser Mouse
Internet:
SBB 70/4 Mb/s
OS & Browser:
OS X 10.11.6
Other:
Iphone 6
Podići će one do 2000ccm a blago smanjiti preko 2000ccm dok će oni preko 3000ccm verovatno biti na istom ako ne i više placati


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

DuleC

PCAXE Member
Učlanjen(a)
25.10.2010.
Poruka
148
Rezultat reagovanja
5
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
AMD Phenom II X4 955BE + Titan Fenrir Push/Pull
Motherboard:
Asus M4A88TD-V EVO/USB3
RAM:
2x2GB Mushkin Blackline Frostbyte
VGA & cooler:
Gigabyte GTX 260 OC 896MB
Display:
22" Samsung 225BW
HDD:
WD 500GB AAKS
Case:
Xigmatek Asgard
PSU:
Chieftec CFT 600W
Mice & keyboard:
Logitech Nano & Logitech EX110
Internet:
WiFi
OS & Browser:
Windows 7 Professional 64bit
To i meni zvuci kao najverovatniji scenario.
 

a c a

PCAXE Member
Učlanjen(a)
25.04.2009.
Poruka
767
Rezultat reagovanja
13
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
Propus@Deneb
Motherboard:
Foxconn
RAM:
Hyper X
VGA & cooler:
AMD
Display:
Samsung
HDD:
WD5000AAKX i WD20EZRZ
Sound:
int.
Case:
690IIa
PSU:
Seasonic
Optical drives:
Pioneer&Liteon
Mice & keyboard:
Chicony&Logitech
Internet:
SBB D3
OS & Browser:
7Ux64/XPSP3
Najvise lici da ce da razvuku grupe od 3.0 do 5.0 litara, i da ce tu napraviti malo manje korake u povecanju, dok ce ostale ostaviti nepromenjene ili podici da nadoknade deficit za one kategorije koje su smanjili :)
Ma da, samo će linearno da usaglase cifre, ništa više. Ali većinu vlasnika automobila preko 2000 ccm više interesuje da li će procenat umanjenja cene po amortizaciji biti smanjen, to je bitnije.
 

MikiD

PCAXE Member
Učlanjen(a)
08.05.2009.
Poruka
411
Rezultat reagovanja
3
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
Intel celeron G1820
Motherboard:
Asus H81M-K
RAM:
Patriot 2x4GB DDR3
VGA & cooler:
intel HD
Display:
ViewSonic VA2216w
HDD:
Samsung F3 500GB
Novo..to je pitanje. Navodno je odzvonilo downsizingu.
Ja sam razumeo da samo nece ici ispod 1.0...

A koliko citam po komentarima 1.4 tsi je mnogo problematican tj kvari se sve i svasta... Mada i tu ima milion verzija, ne samo po snazi nego i po delovima. Blok alu, liveni itd. a svi su 1.4 tsi :D

Mozda su radili na kvalitetu i pouzdanosti sa 1.5 TSI?

EDIT:
Key aspects of what makes the 1.5 different are: it runs on a Miller combustion cycle with a high 12.5:1 compression ratio, has common-rail injection with up to 350 bar pressure, a new thermal management system, cylinder deactivation under low loads and cylinder walls coated in atmospheric plasma spray.
 
Poslednja izmena:

drfedja

CPU Guru
Učlanjen(a)
01.04.2009.
Poruka
3.084
Rezultat reagovanja
14
Moja konfiguracija
PC / Laptop Name:
Dell n5010, Intel Core i3 370M 2.4 GHz, 4 GB DDR3 1333
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i7 4790K @ 4.5 GHz
Motherboard:
Biostar Hi-Fi Z97WE
RAM:
16GB Kingston HyperX Beast 2400
VGA & cooler:
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9-280X
Display:
Viewsonic VA2342 23" LED, LG 25"Ultrawide, Samsung VA2342 23"
HDD:
Samsung SSD850 Evo 250GB, Kingston 120GB V300 SSD, 2x1GB WD Caviar black
Sound:
Altec Lansing 5100E
Case:
Cooler Master 690-III
PSU:
Cooler Master G650M modular
Optical drives:
N/A
Mice & keyboard:
Keyboard/Mouse Cooler Master Storm
Internet:
Cable
OS & Browser:
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Other:
iPhone 6S 64GB
1.2tsi i 1.4tsi su imali neke probleme sa lancima. Dešavalo se da im se razvod s***e i da motor prezubi. Taj problem nisu imali samo u VW, već i BMW/PSA 1.6. Neke serije 1.2 i 1.4 su imale problem sa pucanjem klipova, ali je to izgleda ograničeno na slučajeve. Varijante sa alu blokom nisu baš sjajno rešenje i nisu predviđene za dugotrajno jarenje na autoputu. Jednostavno to su jeftini motori, ceo agregat košta 2000€ nov. Negde je moralo da se uštine.

Prema ovom slajdu ide se na kvalitet i efikasnost. Visok stepen kompresije bi trebalo da obezbedi potrosnju na nivou TDI motora. Specijalno dizajnirani klipovi i glava omogucice sagorevanje bez pretpaljenja.

Neće se ići ispod 1.0, samo je pitanje u šta će se sve ugrađivati taj motor.
 
Poslednja izmena:

drfedja

CPU Guru
Učlanjen(a)
01.04.2009.
Poruka
3.084
Rezultat reagovanja
14
Moja konfiguracija
PC / Laptop Name:
Dell n5010, Intel Core i3 370M 2.4 GHz, 4 GB DDR3 1333
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i7 4790K @ 4.5 GHz
Motherboard:
Biostar Hi-Fi Z97WE
RAM:
16GB Kingston HyperX Beast 2400
VGA & cooler:
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9-280X
Display:
Viewsonic VA2342 23" LED, LG 25"Ultrawide, Samsung VA2342 23"
HDD:
Samsung SSD850 Evo 250GB, Kingston 120GB V300 SSD, 2x1GB WD Caviar black
Sound:
Altec Lansing 5100E
Case:
Cooler Master 690-III
PSU:
Cooler Master G650M modular
Optical drives:
N/A
Mice & keyboard:
Keyboard/Mouse Cooler Master Storm
Internet:
Cable
OS & Browser:
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Other:
iPhone 6S 64GB
Što se tiče 1.4 TSI motora... na seatcupra forumu je neko okačio šta su najveći problemi:

FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEMS WITH THESE ENGINES:

1. Misfiring, Oil Consumption, Engine Failure - ovo je diskutabilno, missfire je čest problem na mnogim benzinskim motorima...
2. PCV System - problem kod većine TSI/TFSI motora uključujući i 2.0.. (rešivo)
3. Turbo - turbo crkava iz nekoliko poznatih razloga: loše podmazivanje, pregrevanje, uletanje stranog tela...
4. Timing Chain - problem ne samo na TSI, u poslednjim verzijama se odustalo od ovog tipa lanca.
5. Radiator
6. Supercharger Magnetic Clutch (za varijante sa superchargerom i turbom)
Evo šta kažu za ove probleme, šta raditi, kako ih rešiti i ukoliko neko hoće da uzme automobil sa ovim agregatom, šta uzeti, odnosno šta izbeći:

A) Piston Rings

After it was finally admitted in late 2011 that there was a problem leading to engine failure(bearing in mind the engine came out in 2010), SEAT offered customers new piston rings.
Actually, what they were doing was fitting completely new pistons. It was VW trying to delude the customer that it was a minor piston ring batch problem rather than a major piston design problem.
In truth, its the pistons that were weak full stop and couldn't handle much punishment before they failed. The specific problem was that the part of the piston between the rings used to crack and then come away, damaging the piston rings and eating into the cylinder bores (although these have proven to be very strong due to being plasma coated).
There have been examples of totally standard cars having piston failure and these tend to be early cars with the original ignition hardware and OEM ECU software. Then when you add an ECU map you are bound to have a failure.
When these pistons crack, oil consumption is increased as it enters the combustion chamber, also lowering the effective octane value of the fuel being injected. This is not the only reason for oil consumption and equally the culprit is the turbocharger, especially on cars with aftermarket exhausts. I will talk about that later.
Its easy to blame the pistons but its not the whole story. If the car was used for daily driving and not running massive amounts of boost, there’s no reason why these pistons should be put under such an amount of punishment that it would result in failure........unless there are other contributing issues, which there are. Read on.........

Solution: Revised pistons 2012 onwards and come as standard in the CTHE/CTHF engine codes.



B) Ignition System

Injectors
These were problematic at the end of 2009/start 2010.
They would drip when stationary with the engine off causing oil to be washed off the bores and pistons, resulting in increased piston ware. Upon starting the engine, the engine would run lumpy because of the extra fuel in cylinder.
Another feature was a narrow spray pattern to the injector. This would result in an incomplete burn when fuelling is at its highest and the excess would collect on the surface of the piston, which would then ignite due to the heat of the engine. This would scorch the surface and cause carbon build up which collected on the exhaust valves. This would cause misfiring due to valves not shutting correctly. The crazy part is that by driving the car hard under boost then it would clean away enough carbon to allow normal operation without misfire but would also speed up the failure process.
When re-maps started getting released as fuelling was increased it was exaggerating the problem. This coupled with the weak pistons discussed earlier resulted in the early engine failures.

Solution: Revised Injectors with a wide spray pattern got released by SEAT mid 2010, chances are most cars have these now, which lead to other problems.
This new problem was at full fuelling the wide pattern would extinguish the spark of the spark plug which is sat almost directly in line with the injector. It is because this 1.4TSI engine is actually based on the old 1.4 16v engine from years ago so that wasn’t addressed. It was Revo Technik that actually discovered this after they had a piston fail when developing their stage 2+ map, subsequently falling out with SEAT. They then halted their development of this engine but came out with a couple of recommendations which I shall discuss below.



Coil Packs
There were a batch of coil packs in 2010 that were faulty according to SEAT but again I believe that was an excuse to make them look less liable for their problems.
There were a later version of the coil packs in 2011 which again the CTHE/CTHF engines have as standard. I believe the aim was to increase the strength of the spark created by the plugs in order to try and stop the misfiring. From my experience these helped very little as the cause of the problem was still existent.



Seat Software+Spark Plugs+High Presure Fuel Pump
This is the main cause of the engine failures since 2010.
So as we know we have the weak pistons and new injectors with a wider spray pattern causing contamination of the spark plug tip.

One other thing I haven’t mentioned yet is the Software. When the engine was re-released as a performance engine in 2010, it coincided with new emission regulations. The pre 2010 variants under the old emission regulations had the same power output as the new FR (150) and engine failures with these were rare; yet the FR failures were as common as the CUPRA (180bhp) variant so it was nothing to do with the increased power output.
It was as a result of the software which ended up making the engine run a lean mixture when not under boost in an effort to meet these regulations.

As it stood, the engine itself ran hot due to its twincharged nature.
Pre detonation was therefore a problem. Fuel was ignited as a result of the heat build-up rather than the activation of the spark plug which, as was mentioned above, was not fully operational under high fuelling instances. So this was throwing timing out when booting the car after gentle driving/traffic situations, the spark plug was then firing without any fuel to ignite making the problem worse. This resulted in engine misfire and stutter until fuelling was increased enough to the extent that it was contaminating the spark plug as we discussed. The fuelling therefore went through cycles of being too lean and too rich.
There were further problems as a result of the ECU software. There were some floored parts of coding in the software that couldn’t control misfiring properly, which is so hard to believe when dealing with such a well established company such as VW. Revo again were the first to inform me of this parameter within the code.

Because the fuelling system is a 'demand' type, air quantity is measured and the correct amount of fuel is then supplied for the desired mixture(as set in the ECU). So when a misfire occurred, the ECU had no comprehension that the engine could possibly be running rich as a result of the misfire, only lean. It would then start increasing fuelling constantly expecting the misfiring to stop, to the point that the engine would completely stall and the cylinders were full of fuel.
This fuel would leak into the sump and mix with the oil which is detrimental to its function. This is another catalyst to the engine ware.
Revo found that cylinder 4 on the other hand, being the last cylinder to be supplied fuel along the common rail fuel supply, was starved of fuel. This is because the capacity of the fuelling system was max'd out; injectors 1, 2 and 3 were at full flow and there wasn’t sufficient fuel left to be able to supply injector 4. This lead to piston 4 being the one that failed in most cases.
SEAT released a new High Pressure Fuel Pump towards the end of 2011 as an attempt to stop the cylinder 4 starvation of fuel, which may or may not have helped, but didn’t address the cause of the problem.
Now when you have a serious bout of misfiring it is obvious, it is felt throughout the car and lights appear on the dash. The majority of the time, the engine would have invisible misfiring. When I logged the car, I found that misfiring was present constantly but not so bad as to be detectable. So this problem was going on to this degree undetected for a lot of cars, leading to piston 4 finally going.

Revo actually took it upon themselves to rewrite this part of the coding, which isn't the norm. Usually they just re configure boost pressure, Air-Fuel-Ratios, timing etc. After this was done people, including myself who were totally standard before, flocked to Revo just for a car that would work properly. It took SEAT several months after this to release software that would solve this problem but of course they still needed to abide by the new EU regulations which REVO didn’t.

In addition to the amended software, Revo also recommended a plug change to NGK Iridium BRK7EIX. This plug was shorter and colder so it sat out of the way of the flow of the injectors whilst reducing pre detonation. Again there is a disadvantage of these plugs. It is more difficult to create an efficient burn, especially on cold start-up. There will be a lumpy initial idle because the plug is on the edge of its operating temperature zone.
Carbon build-up on the valves is still a problem too.
SEAT then released a new model of plugs for this engine to work with their software which are shorter than the original plugs which work with their new software; but not a re-map.

Solution:Revo/New SEAT software + recommended plugs.
The new fuel pump released at the endof 2011 is not necessary but is handy for tuning as I know its adequate for over 300bhp, where the other one may be not.
All the above upgrades will be available on the 2012 cars onwards.


Misfiring is still present with these engines regardless of all the new hardware and software. It will just be on occasion when the right environment is created:

1. High Carbon Build up on the valves restricting exhaust gasses leaving the engine plus carbon build up on the plugs restricting the quality of spark.
- Caused by long slow driving or not using the turbocharger for extended periods

2. High intake temperatures
- Caused by heat soak when in traffic with high ambient temperatures.

3. Lower quality fuel (95ron supermarket)
- Caused by being a tight ass
 

voodoons

Moderator
Učlanjen(a)
06.04.2009.
Poruka
7.946
Rezultat reagovanja
142
Moja konfiguracija
PC / Laptop Name:
voodoons’s MacBook Pro
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i5
Motherboard:
MacBookPro12,1
RAM:
8 GB
VGA & cooler:
Intel Iris Graphics 6100
Display:
Retina LCD 13"
HDD:
APPLE SSD SM0128G
Sound:
Apple Inc
Mice & keyboard:
Lenovo BT Laser Mouse
Internet:
SBB 70/4 Mb/s
OS & Browser:
OS X 10.11.6
Other:
Iphone 6
Ispada da je alu blok jeftiniji za izradu od celicnog? Nisam bas siguran u to ali je svakako alu blok lakši bar 30% od celicnog...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

a c a

PCAXE Member
Učlanjen(a)
25.04.2009.
Poruka
767
Rezultat reagovanja
13
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
Propus@Deneb
Motherboard:
Foxconn
RAM:
Hyper X
VGA & cooler:
AMD
Display:
Samsung
HDD:
WD5000AAKX i WD20EZRZ
Sound:
int.
Case:
690IIa
PSU:
Seasonic
Optical drives:
Pioneer&Liteon
Mice & keyboard:
Chicony&Logitech
Internet:
SBB D3
OS & Browser:
7Ux64/XPSP3
Ako ćeš da gledaš kroz fiziku, specifična težina gvožđa je 7100-7250 kg/m3 a aluminijuma 2700 kg/m3 što je skoro 3 puta lakše.
 

voodoons

Moderator
Učlanjen(a)
06.04.2009.
Poruka
7.946
Rezultat reagovanja
142
Moja konfiguracija
PC / Laptop Name:
voodoons’s MacBook Pro
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i5
Motherboard:
MacBookPro12,1
RAM:
8 GB
VGA & cooler:
Intel Iris Graphics 6100
Display:
Retina LCD 13"
HDD:
APPLE SSD SM0128G
Sound:
Apple Inc
Mice & keyboard:
Lenovo BT Laser Mouse
Internet:
SBB 70/4 Mb/s
OS & Browser:
OS X 10.11.6
Other:
Iphone 6
Pa dobro, blok nije od cistog aluminijuma, neka je legura kao sto ni alu felne nisu od cistog aluminijuma... ja sam hteo reci da mi je nelogično da su stavljali alu blokove zbog smanjenje cene koštanja motora....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

drfedja

CPU Guru
Učlanjen(a)
01.04.2009.
Poruka
3.084
Rezultat reagovanja
14
Moja konfiguracija
PC / Laptop Name:
Dell n5010, Intel Core i3 370M 2.4 GHz, 4 GB DDR3 1333
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i7 4790K @ 4.5 GHz
Motherboard:
Biostar Hi-Fi Z97WE
RAM:
16GB Kingston HyperX Beast 2400
VGA & cooler:
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9-280X
Display:
Viewsonic VA2342 23" LED, LG 25"Ultrawide, Samsung VA2342 23"
HDD:
Samsung SSD850 Evo 250GB, Kingston 120GB V300 SSD, 2x1GB WD Caviar black
Sound:
Altec Lansing 5100E
Case:
Cooler Master 690-III
PSU:
Cooler Master G650M modular
Optical drives:
N/A
Mice & keyboard:
Keyboard/Mouse Cooler Master Storm
Internet:
Cable
OS & Browser:
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Other:
iPhone 6S 64GB
Alu blok jeste lakši, ali to nije jedini element u motoru. Ceo motor sa alu blokom može biti 30% lakši i umesto 150 kila ima npr 120 kila, pod uslovom da su ostale komponente jednake težine, odnosno 100 kila ako staviš lakšu radilicu, klipove, klipnjače.

A nije stvar u ceni nego u odnosu mase motora i njegove snage. Da je npr. u tvom Golfu V 1.4 gusani blok i da imaš radilicu od tdi-a, koja je kovana, debele klipnjače itd... auto bi ti se vukao zbog predimenzioniranosti komponenat, a i duze bi nu trebalo da se ugreje, vise bi trosio.

Da umesto alu bloka imaš gusani, a unutra opet iste komponente, ne bi izgubio previše. To bi radilo isto, ali bi zagrevanje bilo nešto duže i naravno masa automobila koji je ionako težak za tih 75 konja bi bila još za 15-20 kilograma povećana.

Alu blok ne povećava bitno cenu motora u odnosu na gusani, a 20-30 kila manje u nosu može da se oseti u zavojima. Međutim alu blok se lako pokrivi od prevrevanja, naročito ako legura njje na****na. To je jedan od razloga zbog čega se izbegava turbo na alu bloku.
Osim toga, aluminijumski blok je sklon zamoru materijala, i poseduje određen broj ciklusa zagrevanja i hlađenja, dok je materijal gvozdenog bloka vremenom sve čvršći.
Tako na primer 1.2tsi ipak ima alu blok, dok jače varijante nemaju. Opet pojedini sportski automobili imaju alu blokove, ali je i leghra korišćena tamo adekvatna, kao i košuljice cilindara. Evo npr. Honda B18 ima alu blok i vrti se na 9000rpm, instalirali su svašta na taj motor i pravili po 1000KS, što znači da to nužno ne mora da bude loše, ali u baznim modelima kao što je 1.2 tsi i 1.4 16v svakako nije pravljeno od trkačkog materijala, već da zadovolji sporije vozače i da bude što jeftinije.

Dakle, kovani 'billet' blok je posebna priča, ali i skuplja i od livenog alu bloka i od gusanog. Overall za vecinu primena gusani blok je keva.
 
Poslednja izmena:

voodoons

Moderator
Učlanjen(a)
06.04.2009.
Poruka
7.946
Rezultat reagovanja
142
Moja konfiguracija
PC / Laptop Name:
voodoons’s MacBook Pro
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i5
Motherboard:
MacBookPro12,1
RAM:
8 GB
VGA & cooler:
Intel Iris Graphics 6100
Display:
Retina LCD 13"
HDD:
APPLE SSD SM0128G
Sound:
Apple Inc
Mice & keyboard:
Lenovo BT Laser Mouse
Internet:
SBB 70/4 Mb/s
OS & Browser:
OS X 10.11.6
Other:
Iphone 6
Ma ok sve to ali nije jeftiniji alu blok od celicnog sem ako nije u pitanju stainless steel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

a c a

PCAXE Member
Učlanjen(a)
25.04.2009.
Poruka
767
Rezultat reagovanja
13
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
Propus@Deneb
Motherboard:
Foxconn
RAM:
Hyper X
VGA & cooler:
AMD
Display:
Samsung
HDD:
WD5000AAKX i WD20EZRZ
Sound:
int.
Case:
690IIa
PSU:
Seasonic
Optical drives:
Pioneer&Liteon
Mice & keyboard:
Chicony&Logitech
Internet:
SBB D3
OS & Browser:
7Ux64/XPSP3

drfedja

CPU Guru
Učlanjen(a)
01.04.2009.
Poruka
3.084
Rezultat reagovanja
14
Moja konfiguracija
PC / Laptop Name:
Dell n5010, Intel Core i3 370M 2.4 GHz, 4 GB DDR3 1333
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i7 4790K @ 4.5 GHz
Motherboard:
Biostar Hi-Fi Z97WE
RAM:
16GB Kingston HyperX Beast 2400
VGA & cooler:
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9-280X
Display:
Viewsonic VA2342 23" LED, LG 25"Ultrawide, Samsung VA2342 23"
HDD:
Samsung SSD850 Evo 250GB, Kingston 120GB V300 SSD, 2x1GB WD Caviar black
Sound:
Altec Lansing 5100E
Case:
Cooler Master 690-III
PSU:
Cooler Master G650M modular
Optical drives:
N/A
Mice & keyboard:
Keyboard/Mouse Cooler Master Storm
Internet:
Cable
OS & Browser:
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Other:
iPhone 6S 64GB
Ma ok sve to ali nije jeftiniji alu blok od celicnog sem ako nije u pitanju stainless steel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Da li je ovaj što ti imaš jeftiniji ili nije od gusanog 1.4 iz golfa III veliko je pitanje. Ako mene pitaš, mnogo su se bolje pokazali ti stariji gusani motori nego alu blokovi u Mk4 i Mk5. U suštini potrebno je manje kilograma aluminijuma da bi se dobio odlivak nego kod gvožđurije. Za visoke performanse je svakako bolji gusani blok iako je motor sa njim nešto teži. 15KG razlike u težini motora kompenzuje znatno veća snaga koju daje turbo punjač.

Druga stvar, postoje gusani tzv. CGI blokovi. Compacted Graphite Iron - CGI, je predstavljen negde 2004. godine. Uglavnom se koristi za vozila koja rade pod velikim opterećenjima i za snažne turbo dizel agregate, koji obezbeđuju preko 200Nm po litri obrtnog momenta. CGI je proizveden tako što je materijal hlađen u veoma kontrolisanim uslovima, pa je na taj način stvorena matrica molekula u znatno gušćoj formi, čime se ostvaruje manja specifična težina i veća čvrstoća, a zadržavaju se pozitivna svojstva gusa u odnosu na aluminijum.

Audi RS 2.5 TFSI je prvi turbo benzinski motor napravljen od CGI. Osim ovoga, 2.7TDI, 3.0TDI, kao i V8 4.2 TDI i V12 TDI su takođe napravljeni od CGI jer se ovaj materijal veoma dobro pokazao kod dizel motora sa V konfiguracijom.

Ako ćemo da biramo koji blok je najbolji, pa verovatno billet alu, ali cgi daje vrlo verovatno slične karakteristike uz mnogo nižu cenu. Treba uzeti u obzir cenu billet alu bloka koji može da košta i 12.000$. Billet blok je lakši od običnog livenog alu bloka i ima 36% veću zateznu čvrstoću i 66% veći napon tečenja, a CGI blok nije daleko od ovoga. Zahvaljujući ovome manja je distorzija cilindara i veća je snaga koja može da se ostvari iz takvog motora. Prema tome...visokoprodukcijski alu blokovi su smeće i kudikamo bolje rešenje je gus za iste pare.
 
Poslednja izmena:

voodoons

Moderator
Učlanjen(a)
06.04.2009.
Poruka
7.946
Rezultat reagovanja
142
Moja konfiguracija
PC / Laptop Name:
voodoons’s MacBook Pro
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i5
Motherboard:
MacBookPro12,1
RAM:
8 GB
VGA & cooler:
Intel Iris Graphics 6100
Display:
Retina LCD 13"
HDD:
APPLE SSD SM0128G
Sound:
Apple Inc
Mice & keyboard:
Lenovo BT Laser Mouse
Internet:
SBB 70/4 Mb/s
OS & Browser:
OS X 10.11.6
Other:
Iphone 6
Opet Fedja i performanse... ;)
Ja ni u jednoj rečenici nisam spomenuo performanse a ni kvalitet pogotovu onoga sto ja imam. Ono sto ja imam, meni radi odličan posao. Tebi ne i to je ok. Da imam to sto imaš ti, meni ne bi bilo samo visak performansi, kvaliteta ili čega već..
ja samo kažem da cena alu bloka ne može biti manja od celicnog. Znam ja da postoje i skuplje i bolje tehnologije od alu legura ali čelični blok je jeftiniji za izradu... pričamo samo o samom bloku bez dodatnih agregata na motoru..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

a c a

PCAXE Member
Učlanjen(a)
25.04.2009.
Poruka
767
Rezultat reagovanja
13
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
Propus@Deneb
Motherboard:
Foxconn
RAM:
Hyper X
VGA & cooler:
AMD
Display:
Samsung
HDD:
WD5000AAKX i WD20EZRZ
Sound:
int.
Case:
690IIa
PSU:
Seasonic
Optical drives:
Pioneer&Liteon
Mice & keyboard:
Chicony&Logitech
Internet:
SBB D3
OS & Browser:
7Ux64/XPSP3

OCz

PCAXE Member
Učlanjen(a)
04.04.2009.
Poruka
948
Rezultat reagovanja
0
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
i5 750 / Megashadow (lapped) Push-Pull (Scythe GT AP-15)
Motherboard:
Gigabyte P55A-UD6
RAM:
12GB Mushkin & Exceleram
VGA & cooler:
Palit StormX GTX 1050
Display:
LG 32LK450
HDD:
Samsung 840 EVO 128GB & F3 HD153WI
Sound:
Cerwin-Vega! VE-15 / Denon PMA-1500R / AKG K702 / Shanling PH300 / Asus Xonar STX
Case:
Corsair Obsidian 650D
PSU:
Thermaltake Smart SE 530W
Optical drives:
Nemam
Internet:
Imam
OS & Browser:
Windows 8 Pro x64
Od pre par dana kada upalim auto tj. kada je auto hladan cujem huk / pistanje turbine pri davanju gasa tj. kada se turbina zavrti na oko 2000RPM i nadalje.
Nakon nekih minut do dva voznje (iako se motor nista ne zagreje) zvuka vise uopste nema i sve se cini normalno. Ako auto odstoji pola sata, sat ili duze ponovo ista stvar iako sama temperatura motora ne padne skroz tj. sam motor bude i dalje relativno zagrejan. Sta tu mogu ocekivati da se desava? Auto ide sasvim isto i sem pistanja na pocetku nema niceg neobicnog
 

Apple

PCAXE Addicted
Učlanjen(a)
01.01.2010.
Poruka
1.074
Rezultat reagovanja
36
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
INTEL i7-4790K 4.0GHz 8MB EK-KIT H3O - Supreme HF 360 Overclocked to 4.9GHz
Motherboard:
MSI Z87 MPOWER MAX AC
RAM:
CORSAIR 8GB (2x4GB) 1600MHz DDR3 Vengeance CML8GX3M2A1600C9 XMP
VGA & cooler:
Vega 64 EK Full Water Cooled
Display:
ASUS VG248QE 144Hz TN panel
HDD:
Samsung 860 EVO 500GB HITACHI Deskstar 1TB 32MB 7k SATA600 HDS721010DLE630
Sound:
Integrala
Case:
Cooler Master HAF X
PSU:
SEASONIC SS-1000XP
Optical drives:
LG DWD RW
Mice & keyboard:
Razer Deathadder 3500DPI
Internet:
SBB 150/10
OS & Browser:
WIN 10 x64 Pro Legal
Kakvo je ulje sipano,koliko je preslo i da li se masti oko turbine? Kad se upali auto ne kretati odmah nego nakon par minuta pogotovo u ove hladnije dane jer je podmazivanje slabije...
 

OCz

PCAXE Member
Učlanjen(a)
04.04.2009.
Poruka
948
Rezultat reagovanja
0
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
i5 750 / Megashadow (lapped) Push-Pull (Scythe GT AP-15)
Motherboard:
Gigabyte P55A-UD6
RAM:
12GB Mushkin & Exceleram
VGA & cooler:
Palit StormX GTX 1050
Display:
LG 32LK450
HDD:
Samsung 840 EVO 128GB & F3 HD153WI
Sound:
Cerwin-Vega! VE-15 / Denon PMA-1500R / AKG K702 / Shanling PH300 / Asus Xonar STX
Case:
Corsair Obsidian 650D
PSU:
Thermaltake Smart SE 530W
Optical drives:
Nemam
Internet:
Imam
OS & Browser:
Windows 8 Pro x64
Mobil ful sintetika, 0W-40. Uvek se sipa isto ulje vec 5god. Da li masti oko turbine ne znam jer nisam gledao, a auto ne cekam duze od pola minuta po ovom vremenu (iznad nule) vec ga lagano vozim da se zagreje. Ne bih rekao da je ovde ista do podmazivanja jer ako auto odstoji oko grubo pola sata od zadnje voznje, i motor je i dalje zagrejan, bice tog pistanja nakon sto se ponovo upali i ponovo ce isto nestati nakon minut do dva voznje?
 

drfedja

CPU Guru
Učlanjen(a)
01.04.2009.
Poruka
3.084
Rezultat reagovanja
14
Moja konfiguracija
PC / Laptop Name:
Dell n5010, Intel Core i3 370M 2.4 GHz, 4 GB DDR3 1333
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i7 4790K @ 4.5 GHz
Motherboard:
Biostar Hi-Fi Z97WE
RAM:
16GB Kingston HyperX Beast 2400
VGA & cooler:
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9-280X
Display:
Viewsonic VA2342 23" LED, LG 25"Ultrawide, Samsung VA2342 23"
HDD:
Samsung SSD850 Evo 250GB, Kingston 120GB V300 SSD, 2x1GB WD Caviar black
Sound:
Altec Lansing 5100E
Case:
Cooler Master 690-III
PSU:
Cooler Master G650M modular
Optical drives:
N/A
Mice & keyboard:
Keyboard/Mouse Cooler Master Storm
Internet:
Cable
OS & Browser:
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Other:
iPhone 6S 64GB
Opet Fedja i performanse... ;)
Ja ni u jednoj rečenici nisam spomenuo performanse a ni kvalitet pogotovu onoga sto ja imam. Ono sto ja imam, meni radi odličan posao. Tebi ne i to je ok. Da imam to sto imaš ti, meni ne bi bilo samo visak performansi, kvaliteta ili čega već..
ja samo kažem da cena alu bloka ne može biti manja od celicnog. Znam ja da postoje i skuplje i bolje tehnologije od alu legura ali čelični blok je jeftiniji za izradu... pričamo samo o samom bloku bez dodatnih agregata na motoru..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Opet pričaš na pamet... Kolika je težina tvog ALU bloka, a kolika je težina npr. ekvivaletnog gusanog bloka na 1.4 motoru na G3 ? Nemaš pojma.

Aluminijumska legura po toni košta npr. 1600$, a ćelik, pa zavisi koji, cena može biti od 300 - 500$ po toni. Međutim, čelični blok je teži skoro duplo od alu bloka, a osim toga potrebno mu je da odleži neki period da bi bio spreman za obradu. S druge strane ALU blok se teže obrađuje. Overall razlika u ceni nije velika ako gledamo ove obične putničke automobile. Materijal za čelični blok košta npr. 20$, a za ALU blok 34$. Složićeš se da 14$ ne pravi neku bitnu razliku u ceni celog motora koji košta npr. 2500$ nov.

Pričam ti o performansama, jer je ALU blok vrlo ozbiljna stvar kada se uradi kako treba, ali ozbiljno i košta tada i naravno utiče bitno na cenu motora.
Ovako je razlika mizerna u odnosu na cenu celog motora i pričaš o nebitnim stvarima.

Samo sam bio detaljan da bude jasno kakav ALU blok je skuplji znatno od čeličnog bloka, a kakav nije znatno skuplji i koje prednosti koji ima.

Fabrika u tvoj autmobil nije stavila alu blok da bi uštedela, već da bi smanjila ukupnu težinu vozila za neki broj kilograma...to je npr. 15tak kg, ali i da bi poboljšala brzinu zagrevanja motora, što naravno pozitivno utiče na potrošnju u zimskim uslovima, a to opet utiče na emisiju izduvnih gasova itd. itd... Osim toga aluminijumski blok ima bolji transfer toplote, pa je moguće koristiti veću kompresiju i/ili ranije paljenje sa jednakom oktanskom vrednošću, što opet pozitivno utiče na stepen korisnog dejstva, što je ujedno i najveći benefit alu bloka.

Fabrika to nije radila zato što je to za tebe bolje i zato što se to tebi isplati, nego zato što se prvo njima isplati. Eventualni benefit u vidu niže potrošnje je toliko mizeran da je pitanje u teoretskim uslovima da li bi imao mogućnost da izmeriš to i da kažeš...e ALU blok manje troši. Na kraju krajeva, taj aluminijumski motorčić vuče golfa 5 teškog 1200 kila, pa je poželjno da bude što efikasniji.
 
Poslednja izmena:

drfedja

CPU Guru
Učlanjen(a)
01.04.2009.
Poruka
3.084
Rezultat reagovanja
14
Moja konfiguracija
PC / Laptop Name:
Dell n5010, Intel Core i3 370M 2.4 GHz, 4 GB DDR3 1333
CPU & cooler:
Intel Core i7 4790K @ 4.5 GHz
Motherboard:
Biostar Hi-Fi Z97WE
RAM:
16GB Kingston HyperX Beast 2400
VGA & cooler:
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9-280X
Display:
Viewsonic VA2342 23" LED, LG 25"Ultrawide, Samsung VA2342 23"
HDD:
Samsung SSD850 Evo 250GB, Kingston 120GB V300 SSD, 2x1GB WD Caviar black
Sound:
Altec Lansing 5100E
Case:
Cooler Master 690-III
PSU:
Cooler Master G650M modular
Optical drives:
N/A
Mice & keyboard:
Keyboard/Mouse Cooler Master Storm
Internet:
Cable
OS & Browser:
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Other:
iPhone 6S 64GB
Od pre par dana kada upalim auto tj. kada je auto hladan cujem huk / pistanje turbine pri davanju gasa tj. kada se turbina zavrti na oko 2000RPM i nadalje.
Nakon nekih minut do dva voznje (iako se motor nista ne zagreje) zvuka vise uopste nema i sve se cini normalno. Ako auto odstoji pola sata, sat ili duze ponovo ista stvar iako sama temperatura motora ne padne skroz tj. sam motor bude i dalje relativno zagrejan. Sta tu mogu ocekivati da se desava? Auto ide sasvim isto i sem pistanja na pocetku nema niceg neobicnog
Jel pištanje ili huk, ili više zavijanje ? Kad je hladnije vreme dok je motor hladan to je normalan zvuk. To bi trebalo da se dešava pri manjem gasu, kad ubrzaš i kad turbo spooluje taj huk treba da se izgubi. Ne sme da bude upadljiv. Ako je previše upadljiv, onda ti najverovatnije šeta osovina turba u ležaju.
 

OCz

PCAXE Member
Učlanjen(a)
04.04.2009.
Poruka
948
Rezultat reagovanja
0
Moja konfiguracija
CPU & cooler:
i5 750 / Megashadow (lapped) Push-Pull (Scythe GT AP-15)
Motherboard:
Gigabyte P55A-UD6
RAM:
12GB Mushkin & Exceleram
VGA & cooler:
Palit StormX GTX 1050
Display:
LG 32LK450
HDD:
Samsung 840 EVO 128GB & F3 HD153WI
Sound:
Cerwin-Vega! VE-15 / Denon PMA-1500R / AKG K702 / Shanling PH300 / Asus Xonar STX
Case:
Corsair Obsidian 650D
PSU:
Thermaltake Smart SE 530W
Optical drives:
Nemam
Internet:
Imam
OS & Browser:
Windows 8 Pro x64
Nije huk, najpribliznije je pistanju, ali toga ranije nikada nije bilo. Znamo da je bilo i ispod -10 do nedavno i nikada nije bilo nikakvog zvuka sve do pre par dana kada sam to primetio. Cuje se kada se zavrti turbina tj. kao sto rekoh na oko 2000RPM i nadalje (znaci ipak treba malo gasa) ali nakon bukvalno minut do dva voznje od kada se upali auto vise nema nikakvog pistanja kao sto ga ni ranije nije bilo nikada. Uglavnom ne cuje se samo od sebe niti pri malom gasu, cuje se samo pri malo vise gasa tj. kada se turbina zavrti i cuje se samo minut do dva nakon sto se upali auto i tako svaki put kada se barem da kazemo turbina ohladi. Posto kao sto rekoh motor i dalje moze ostati zagrejan ali ako prodje grubo pola sata od zadnjeg gasenja auta ponovo se ponavlja prica, tu je pistanje pri gasu i zatim ubrzo nestaje samo od sebe
 
Poslednja izmena:
Vrh